Article: 16468 of rec.music.indian.misc Path: netnews.CC.Lehigh.EDU!Lehigh.EDU!sm0e From: sm0e@Lehigh.EDU (SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED) Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc Subject: The "WAR" Chronicles 4 Date: 5 Aug 1994 22:26:02 GMT Organization: Lehigh University Lines: 539 Distribution: world Message-ID: <31ue9q$jr9@Fidoii.CC.Lehigh.EDU> NNTP-Posting-Host: ihb103h.cc.lehigh.edu Keywords: Rafi, KK, war After unsuccessfully lobbying for the inclusion of the "WAR" in the RMIM-FAQ, we have decided to bring "THE WAR CHRONICLES" directly to the RMIM junta. "THE WAR CHRONICLES" are re-runs, ie. the posts have been pulled out of the RMIM archives after an extensive search. Although we have not taken the permission of the original poster, we will be acknowledging his/her efforts in the relevant chronicle. Some of these RMIMers are still active, while the rest have already bid adieu. We hope that all RMIMers, both old and new, will enjoy this new series. Rajan Parrikar (Self-appointed President of the KKKlan) Sami Mohammed (Acting President of the RAFIans, in the absence of Abhay Avachat) Today's Post: We have decided to move on to the 1994 war which was waged earlier this year in March. Both of us agree that this was the most entertaining "war", especially since the serious techincalities were already exhausted in the previous "wars". Today's post includes contributions from Suresh Subramanian, Sami Mohammed, Rajan Parrikar, Abhay Avachat and Pradeep Dubey. In this post, u'll find Rajan's (in)famous "Lallu" statement :-) and Abhay's absolutely hilarious description of the "war" ! :-) Read on and enjoy.... From: parrikar@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan Purshottam Parrikar) Subject: Re: Sweeping statement! Message-ID: Sender: usenet@cnsnews.Colorado.EDU (Net News Administrator) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1994Mar18.205747.15189@newstand.syr.edu> Date: Sat, 19 Mar 1994 18:42:33 GMT Lines: 60 subramas@mothra.syr.edu (Suresh Subramanian) writes: >Hi folks!I was just thinking about it today after reading Sami's views >on singers and their voices.All the songs that Yesudas has sung in Hindi- >if you can imagine them to be sung by Suresh Wadkar would have sounded as >good or even better considering that they would have been devoid of >accent.This is in no way meant to demean Yesudas,but just a follow-up to Are you kiddin'? Suresh Wadkar and "devoid of accent"? The ghat in him shines through and through:-). And I wouldn't compare the world-class Yesudas with Wadkarbaby who could do with a few lessons from the master. >Sami's view that he didn't like Yesudas' accent. >What do other netters think in this particular case? Accents don't bother me that much. There's a certain charm they bring to the rendition. (This is not to say that one shouldn't make efforts to iron out the creases:-). >----Suresh >P.S.When it comes to choosing between Rafi and Kishore as to who is the >best singer,I would throw in the towel.Both of them have such good songs >to suit all kinds of moods and situations that it is very difficult to >decide.However in the one song that I know of -that has been sung separately >by Rafi and Kishore-"Tum Bin Jaun Kahaan"-Kishore IMO has done the better job >among the two.I get so much feeling from the Kishore version that compared >to that the Rafi version seems plain and flat.However,since I haven't watched >the particular movie with that song,I dont know the situations in which the >two versions have been sung and hence I cannot say if this means that RAfi >could not have done an equally good or better job. >What do you folks think? Nice try, Suresh, to get a flame war going:-). Sami and the rest of Rafi-wimpolas, get this straight: KISHORE KICKS ASS. And yes guys, I have had this nagging question all along: Why does Rafi cry in his sad songs? Can't he just convey the feeling with his voice and emoting? Of course, the answer is perfectly clear at first sight (if you are not a Rafi-wimpola). The man just doesn't have the bandwidth. But it is not right to blame Rafi. After all, when God disbursed Her:-) bounty, almost all of it crashed through one roof in Khandwa. History tells us that the year was 1928. And what is this Ooohi-Aaahi stuff about Talat eh? The sorry wishy-washy quivering Lallu whose only claim to glory is his palindromic first name. Women of the World, here is some quality advice: Unless you want to spend quality time doing some quality rona-dhona in real-time, stay away from these Talat aficionados. Men of the World: Whether it is a Madhuri or a Tun Tun you want to charm the pallu off, Kishore's your man. I guarantee it. :-) Rajan [Narayan! Narayan!] Parrikar ================================== email: rajan@anteng.ssd.loral.com parrikar@mimicad.colorado.edu Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc >From: sm0e@Lehigh.EDU (SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED) Subject: Re: Sweeping statement! Sender: usenet@Lehigh.EDU Message-ID: <1994Mar21.042516.35556@Lehigh.EDU> Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 04:25:16 GMT References: <1994Mar18.205747.15189@newstand.syr.edu> Nntp-Posting-Host: wh457d.cc.lehigh.edu Organization: Lehigh University Lines: 118 In article , parrikar@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan Purshottam Parrikar) writes: >subramas@mothra.syr.edu (Suresh Subramanian) writes: > >Are you kiddin'? Suresh Wadkar and "devoid of accent"? The ghat in >him shines through and through:-). And I wouldn't compare the world-class >Yesudas with Wadkarbaby who could do with a few lessons from the >master. I agree with Rajan here (perhaps the only place where I agree with him in the entire post :-) ) sWadkar did have a strong accent. Just listen to his "Mohabbat hai kya cheez humko bataao...." and u'll know; esp. the way he pronounces "cheez" >>Sami's view that he didn't like Yesudas' accent. >>What do other netters think in this particular case? > >Accents don't bother me that much. There's a certain charm they I don't agree, but have no objections. >>----Suresh >>decide.However in the one song that I know of -that has been sung separately >>by Rafi and Kishore-"Tum Bin Jaun Kahaan"-Kishore IMO has done the better job >>among the two.I get so much feeling from the Kishore version that compared >>to that the Rafi version seems plain and flat.However,since I haven't watched >>What do you folks think? Well, if u r looking for gimmicks such as yodeling in the song, then I agree that KK's version is better. But IMHO, the Rafi version is terrific esp. the part "tum kya jaanon ke bhaTakta phira kis-kis gali...." Let me cite another example to compare KK and Rafi: The song "Sa re ga ma...." from Chupke Chupke (a duet by KK and Rafi). KK makes a strong effort to go thro' the "Sa re ga ma...." stage at the beginning of the song. But, when Rafi Sahab joins in, the song looks so simple. The words come out so smoothly when Rafi is singing them. OK, the KK Klan might give the excuse that KK didn't have a formal training in classical music. But, the discussion is not about why Rafi was better, it is about Rafi being better! >Nice try, Suresh, to get a flame war going:-). :-) Let's try to keep it down to an interesting discussion. Rajan, I know it's deja-vu, but it sure is interesting :-) >Sami and the rest of Rafi-wimpolas, get this straight: KISHORE KICKS ASS. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Er, Rajan Bhai, I thought we were discussing KK's ability to sing and not to ....... :-) >And yes guys, I have had this nagging question all along: Why does Rafi >cry in his sad songs? Wud u care to elaborate. How about a couple of examples. Is it the same kind of crying as KK's in "Kaise kahen hum..." (as Mahesh pointed out) or is it the kind of crying we hear in "Dukhi man mere, sun mera kehna" ? >Can't he just convey the feeling with his voice >and emoting? See above... >Of course, the answer is perfectly clear at first sight (if ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Ah! the man knows yet he wants to know! Ghalib Sahab ne kaha hai: "Humko unse wafa ki hai ummeed Jo nahin jaante wafa kya hai..." Let me modify it to fit the above case: "Hume unko jawaab dene ki hai ummeed Jo KHud jaante hain ke jawaab kya hai" :-) >you are not a Rafi-wimpola). The man just doesn't have the bandwidth. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ "Rajan re jhoot mat bolo, KHuda ke paas jaana hai" :-) Rajan, u r trying to prove a point against Rafi Sahab and u want to say that he doesn't have "bandwidth" ??? Let me provide a sub-set of his bandwidth and challenge (yes challenge!) u to substitute each song with that of KK; (This subset is from the posting of a fellow RMIMer which I deleted by mistake and hence don't rem. his name... If he's reading this, then please accept my thanks and mail me a copy of that article). Rajan u werent' very precise about ur definition of "bandwidth" but I take it that u meant range.... 1. Bhakti: Sukh ke sab saathi, dukh me nai koy (in Bairaagi or Gopi, nice SJ tune for a change :-) ) 2. Desh-Bhakti: "Ab koi gulshan na ujRe ab watan aazad hai..." 3. For an old man (not imitating an old man): Babul ki duaaen leti ja.. 4. For another playback singer who cudn't sing well :-): Ajab hai daastan teri ai zindagi.... 5. GHazal: Ye waadian ye fizaen bula rahin hai tumhen 6. Quawwali: Chandi ka badan sone ki nazar.... That shud do I guess..... I can already hear Rajan saying that that was not what he meant by bandwith. >And what is this Ooohi-Aaahi stuff about Talat eh? The sorry wishy-washy Unfortunately, category 5 of the above "bandwidth" can be substituted by many a Talat gem, but not KK :-( >quivering Lallu whose only claim to glory is his palindromic first name. Hey, KK's initials are palindromic too :-) >Men of the World: Whether it is a Madhuri or a Tun Tun you want to >charm the pallu off, Kishore's your man. I guarantee it. To charm a Madhuri, a "Khambe jaisi khaRi hai.." type of singer wud suffice. And finally, Rajan Sahab, it's high time u realized that "Aur bhi GHam hai zamane me mohabbat ke siwa" or "Pyaar sab-kuch nahin aadmi ke lie" because "Bahut zyada pyaar bhi achha nahin hota" (The last line is from ur fav. KK's "Aadmi jo kehta hai, aadmi jo sunta hai...") >:-) :-) :-) Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan).... who is missing PVNR during this re-run of the Rafi/KK (note that it's not the KK/Rafi :-) ) war! >Rajan [Narayan! Narayan!] Parrikar >From: maheshs@bmerhaaa.bnr.ca (Mahesh Srinivas) Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc Subject: Re: Sweeping statement! Date: 20 Mar 1994 17:03:45 GMT Organization: Bell-Northern Research, Ottawa, Canada Lines: 28 Sender: maheshs@bmerhaaa (Eric Bierman) Distribution: world Message-ID: <2mhvlh$pv3@bmerha64.bnr.ca> References: <1994Mar18.205747.15189@newstand.syr.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: bmerhaaa.bnr.ca In article , parrikar@spot.Colorado.EDU (R ajan Purshottam Parrikar) writes: > Sami and the rest of Rafi-wimpolas, get this straight: KISHORE KICKS ASS. Correction. KICKS ASS MIGHTILY! :-) > And yes guys, I have had this nagging question all along: Why does Rafi > cry in his sad songs? Can't he just convey the feeling with his voice > and emoting? Of course, the answer is perfectly clear at first sight (if > you are not a Rafi-wimpola). The man just doesn't have the bandwidth. I have to disagree with you on this one. Just coz a person cries in a song doesn't mean he lacks bandwidth, in fact a strategically placed sob/ironic laugh can enhance the effect of a song hugely. Consider some of KK's songs: Kaise kahen hum: The part after 'Tum kya jaano' - now KK kinda sobs, and raises the "feel" level of the song hugely. 'Yeh laal rang': KK is full of "special effects" :-) in this song. An ironic laugh here, a slight sob there, and all done so beautifully, it sets the song on fire. :-) And Raji hardly lacked bandwidth :-) But I'll leave his defence to more competent authorities, who are no doubt plotting revenge on KK Klanians. :-) Mahesh -- >From: avachat@sun8.mch.sni.de (Abhay Avachat) Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc Subject: Re: Sweeping statement! Date: 21 Mar 1994 10:08:39 +0100 Organization: Siemens Nixdorf AG Lines: 63 Message-ID: <2mjo6n$iq@sun8.mch.sni.de> References: <1994Mar18.205747.15189@newstand.syr.edu> NNTP-Posting-Host: sun8.mch.sni.de In article parrikar@spot.Colorado.EDU (Ra jan Purshottam Parrikar) writes: : : subramas@mothra.syr.edu (Suresh Subramanian) writes: : [remarks about Rafi - KK deleted] : Nice try, Suresh, to get a flame war going:-). : : Sami and the rest of Rafi-wimpolas, get this straight: KISHORE KICKS ASS. Great show Rajanbabu ! So finally you managed to start something :-) And although you got a good reply from Sami, you did manage to disturb him with the "lack of bandwidth" funda, so congrats :-) I generally avoid KK-Rafi fan combats, because they tend to have the following pattern :-) KKFan : It is obvious that KK was the best singer ! Better than your Rafi !! RafiFan : (perplexed) Obvious ? but how ? KKFan : Of course. He kicks ass. And mightyly. RafiFan : (still perplexed) But how does that say anything about singing abilities ? KKFan : I mean he pours emotions in his songs. RafiFan : (slightly interested) Can you elaborate please ? KKFan : Naturally. The way he laughs in between, his famous yodeling, the way he could say "kukru kuku" etc. RafiFan : But what about singing. What you said above, can be done in a better way by Johny Lever. What about SINGING ? KKFan : (annoyed) Come now. Have you ever seen him singing ? He really used to dance while recording his songs. RafiFan : But I prefer to HEAR somebody sing, rather than SEE him singing. What about his singing abilities ? KKFan : He was a genius. He could act, he could dance, he could direct movies. He was ultimate. He had 4 wives, you know ! RafiFan : But my dear freind, let's discuss SINGING please. KKFan : You don't understand anything about music. Your Talat had a palindromic name. RafiFan : (??) But I am a Rafi fan. I don't care how anybody spells a name. I would like to know why you think KK was better. KKFan : Don't dare you start a flame war ! Our KKFanClub has a lot more members. You will be blasted off the net. RafiFan : (amused) But let's just discuss. eg. How good was KK while singing classical based songs ? KKFan : Ah ! I knew you would come to this point. We are well aware that KK didn't have a formal training. RafiFan : But is it Rafi's fault ? KKFan : (trying to think) No .. I mean .. Yes. No. No. But he was good in every other aspect. And why should everybody sing those Naushad songs ? KK was more lively singer, he could put emotions into every song. Remember that "kukru kuku" ? RafiFan : (exasperated) There is no hope. I give up. KKFan : You see, you see. I knew I would win. You Rafi fans have no point on which you can argue. Ha ha ha, KK the greatest ! (shouts ... shouts and just shouts ... ) So dear KKfan, if you have anything more than this ... :-) :-) Samibhai, let's join hands for immersing KKFC in hot water for once and all, then we will discuss SJ :-) - Abhay. The Never-ending-story begins ! >From: pradeep@watson.ibm.com (Pradeep Dubey) Subject: Re: Sweeping statement! Sender: news@hawnews.watson.ibm.com (NNTP News Poster) Message-ID: Date: Mon, 21 Mar 1994 14:44:49 GMT Reply-To: pradeep@watson.ibm.com Disclaimer: This posting represents the poster's views, not necessarily those of IBM. References: <1994Mar18.205747.15189@newstand.syr.edu> Nntp-Posting-Host: calcutta.watson.ibm.com Organization: T. J. Watson Research Center Lines: 92 In article , parrikar@spot.Colorado.EDU (R ajan Purshottam Parrikar) writes: |> subramas@mothra.syr.edu (Suresh Subramanian) writes: |> |> >Hi folks!I was just thinking about it today after reading Sami's views |> >on singers and their voices.All the songs that Yesudas has sung in Hindi- |> >if you can imagine them to be sung by Suresh Wadkar would have sounded as |> >good or even better considering that they would have been devoid of |> >accent.This is in no way meant to demean Yesudas,but just a follow-up to |> |> Are you kiddin'? Suresh Wadkar and "devoid of accent"? The ghat in |> him shines through and through:-). And I wouldn't compare the world-class |> Yesudas with Wadkarbaby who could do with a few lessons from the |> master. Thanks Rajan. I have no idea how I missed this criticism of Yesudas. Suresh: please listen carefully to just the following three jems of his and tell me if Suresh Wadear or for that matter anyone else could have done it better: ni sa ga ma pa ni teri tasweer ko seene se laga rakha hai zid na karo ab to ruko The perfectly controlled flexibility (lachak) in his voice is very much unparalleled IMHO. Let me reluctantly add some fuel to the Rafi-KK debate also: As a tribute to Rafi, KishoreDa had sung his famous "man re tu kahe na dheer dhare" song and I seriously felt that it sounded much better in KK's voice. In fact he had modified the song little bit, so that "dheer" is sung off a lower note. And this tiny change clearly illustrates the difference between these giants: Kishore had the asset of heavy base in his voice which singers like Manna D lack, Rafi doesn't come close either. Only Hemant could compete with Kishore here. Note that I have not yet mentioned the "yodelling" art which Rafi and many others would/should never even try. Rafi did have some classical training. But KK even without any formal training could have tried: man tarapt hari darshan and perhaps would have been equally good :-). Pradeep |> Rajan [Narayan! Narayan!] Parrikar |> ================================== |> email: rajan@anteng.ssd.loral.com |> parrikar@mimicad.colorado.edu Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc >From: parrikar@spot.Colorado.EDU (Rajan Purshottam Parrikar) Subject: Re: Sweeping statement! Message-ID: Sender: usenet@cnsnews.Colorado.EDU (Net News Administrator) Nntp-Posting-Host: spot.colorado.edu Organization: University of Colorado, Boulder References: <1994Mar18.205747.15189@newstand.syr.edu> <1994Mar21.042516.35556@Lehigh.EDU> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 06:23:25 GMT Lines: 42 Always nice to see this annual mud-throwing by Rafians and the Klan. But the sun has gone down now and the yuddh has got to stop. Berther Sami, come sing with me this song by KK and the great Mohammad Rafi. BTW, Berther Abhay's dig was hilarious! Rafi: bane chAhe dushman zamAnA humArA salAmat rahe dostAnA humArA Rafi/KK: bane chAhe..... Rafi: woh khwAboN ke din woh kitAboN ke din sawAloN ki rAteiN jawAboN ke din ka'i sAl humne guzAre yahAN yahi sAtH khele huey hum jawaN tHa bachpan baDA aashiqAnA humArA salAmat rahe dostAnA humArA Rafi/KK: bane chAhe..... KK: nA bichdeNge mar ke hum dostoN humeiN dosti ki kasam dostoN patA ko'i poochhe to kehte hai hum ke ek dooje ke dil me rehte hai hum nahiN aur ko'i tHeekAnA humArA salAmat rahe dostAnA humArA Rafi/KK: bane chAhe..... Phillum: Dostana Music: LP Lyrics: Anand Bakshi Filmed on: Amitabh and Shatru Rajan Parrikar ============== email: rajan@anteng.ssd.loral.com parrikar@mimicad.colorado.edu Newsgroups: rec.music.indian.misc >From: sm0e@Lehigh.EDU (SAMIUDDIN MOHAMMED) Subject: Re: Sweeping statement! Sender: usenet@Lehigh.EDU Message-ID: <1994Mar22.180814.29272@Lehigh.EDU> Date: Tue, 22 Mar 1994 18:08:14 GMT References: <1994Mar18.205747.15189@newstand.syr.edu> <1994Mar21.042516.35556@Lehigh.EDU> Nntp-Posting-Host: ihb103r.cc.lehigh.edu Organization: Lehigh University Lines: 34 In article , parrikar@spot.Colorado.EDU (R ajan Purshottam Parrikar) writes: > >Always nice to see this annual mud-throwing by Rafians and the Klan. >But the sun has gone down now and the yuddh has got to stop. Berther >Sami, come sing with me this song by KK and the great Mohammad Rafi. Yeah, I guess we shud stop before it goes out of control. Boy, I luv this newsgroup. U can wage a war without resorting to flames! >BTW, Berther Abhay's dig was hilarious! Absolutely! Esp. the reference to Johnny Lever :-) >Rafi: bane chAhe dushman zamAnA humArA > salAmat rahe dostAnA humArA >Rafi/KK: bane chAhe..... [....lyrics deleted...] Alright Rajan, let's sing this song together. Hey, hold on! U r not singing right. U lack bandwidth man! :-) Is this the beginning of a new war or what! Sami Mohammed (A Naushad fan)...... and a KK fan! >Rajan Parrikar